Why You Keep Losing People Ft. Dr. Marcus Shepard

Welcome back to another episode of the Hella Chisme Podcast! The show where culture, community, and real conversation live.

This is a space where we celebrate and uplift the voices and stories that don’t get told enough, and have honest conversations about the things that actually matter.

Also… maybe sometimes the things that don’t. And depending on the day? I might be getting into some foolishness. And in those moments, you are more than welcome to come check me on it in the comments.

Respectfully!

Whatever it is we’re doing over here, we show up real. And I love that y’all continue to come back each time to listen, laugh, chime in, and be part of this community.

This week, we are reaching into the Hella Chisme vault.

Why do some friendships last decades while others fade without explanation?

Dr. Marcus C. Shepard, tenured professor of communication and host of Off the Data Provided, breaks down his Friendship Formula: investment, emotional closeness, trust, and support. If any one of those is missing, the relationship starts to crumble.

We also get into dating apps and why people stay stuck on them, whether texting and DMs count as real communication (spoiler: they do), and why great communicators actually fight MORE they just know how to resolve it.

🔗 LINKS:

Dr. Marcus Shepard:

Connect with Dr. Marcus Shepard:

"Meet Dr. Marcus C. Shepard a tenured professor in communication who studies communication, identity and diversity as they are heard within soul music, discussed by multiracial communities, and within interpersonal relationships."

https://www.marcusshepard.com/

Julian Winters New Book!

Hella Chisme:

https://linktr.ee/hellachismepodcast

Topics to include: friendship formula, how to keep friends, interpersonal communication, dr marcus shepard, conflict resolution, hard conversations, communication skills, dating apps, ghosting, emotional closeness, active listening, building relationships, queer friendships, setting boundaries, trust and support, hella chisme podcast, queer podcast, communication tips, friendship advice, relationship building

Transcript

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Underworld Romance Book Shoutout

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Alright, y'all. Before we get back into the cheese made, I have to put a book on your radar. And this one comes from somebody who has already been a part of the Hella Cheese Mate family. If you've been listening for a while, you might remember episode 105. That's right, because you know we pass 100 episodes now. Uh yes, that episode is Queer Kids Deserve Happily Ever Afters with Julian Winters, where we discuss writing love that heals. Author Julian Winters joined me for a really great conversation about his writing journey, the importance of telling queer romantic stories, and why queer young people deserve to see themselves in stories where they get to experience love, joy, healing, and yes, a happily ever after. Well, Jillian is back with a new book called Find My Way Down to You. And apparently, falling in love in this world wasn't complicated enough, so now we gotta worry about falling in love in the underworld too. The story follows 18-year-old August, who is still grieving the death of his first love when he was accidentally when he accidentally finds himself in the underworld. Now listen, if you suddenly find out there was a chance for you to be reunited with the person you thought you'd lost forever, what would you do? But August sees that possibility and he's willing to go after it. But there's one little complication. Okay, maybe one fine little complication. Carrie. Carrie is the brooding fear of souls who might be August's only chance of finding his first love again. But the more August spends with Carrie, the more complicated this journey becomes. Because how do you fight your way back to the person you love while potentially falling in love for somebody else? Woo! Baby. Now that is some underworld cheese make. You've got grief, you've got queer romance, you've got longing, you've got the underworld, and you've got the messiness of trying to figure out whether moving forward means letting go of the love you had or allowing yourself to experience something different. And after my conversation with Julie in episode 105 about telling queer love stories and how that matters, I'm excited to see him continuing to give queer characters these big, complicated romantic stories where we get to fall in love, experience heartbreak, heal, and find our way forward. So if you're looking for your next read, make sure you check out Julian Winter's new book, Find My Way Down. And if you haven't heard my conversation with Julian yet, go back and check out the Hella Cheese May podcast episode 105 Queer Kids Deserve Happily Ever Afters with Julian Winters. Consider that's your little Hella Cheese Made homework assignment. Read the book, listen to the episode, and then come back so we can discuss. Alright, now I'm sorry, I'm not gonna take too much more of y'all's time. Thank you, and let's get back to the cheese made. Bye.

Welcome Back To The Vault

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Welcome back to another episode of the Hella Cheese Made Podcast, the show where culture, community, and real conversations live. My name is Dana, and I'm your host. This is a space where we celebrate and uplift voices and stories that don't get told enough, and the honest conversations about the things that actually matter. Also, maybe sometimes the things that don't. And depending on the day, I might be getting into some foolishness. And in those moments, you are more than welcome to come check me in the comments, but make sure you're doing it respectfully. Whatever it is we're doing over here, we show up real. And I love that y'all continue to come back each and every time to listen, laugh, chime in, and be a part of this community. Now, with all that being said, today we are reaching back into the Hella Cheese May vote. That's right. We are going to listen to an old conversation I had with Dr. Marcus Shepherd. I realized in re-listening to that conversation that we were having a very good conversation about communication. And even though the conversation was originally recorded a while ago, I just I started to notice some things. Friendships change, people get into relationships and suddenly disappear. Dating apps have us trying to figure out whether somebody actually likes us or if they're just collecting matches. We're getting ghosted, we're setting boundaries, we are trying to communicate better, and sometimes we are sitting there wondering, Am I asking too much, or am I just asking the wrong person? And that is why I wanted to bring this conversation back. In this episode, like I mentioned, I'm joined with Dr. Marcus Shepard, a professor of communication and host of Off the Data Provided. And we get into some real good juicy juicy team. We talked about what actually makes an interpersonal relationship a relationship. We get into the four things that help build strong relationships. So investment, emotional closeness, trust, and support. And what happens when you realize, wait a minute, I'm putting a whole lot more into this relationship than you are. We talk friendships, dating apps, ghosting, conflict, workplace relationships, communication styles, which we all have them different, and boundaries. And even while being a good communicator, and although some of us may feel like we are, that doesn't mean when you are arguing with somebody that you're good at communicating your feelings. Because sometimes conflict isn't necessarily the problem, it's how you're handling it. Neither person has to be wrong, because you know, I like to think I'm never wrong. But sometimes y'all are just not compatible. And I think that's a word. Because whether we're talking about friendships, dating, family, co-workers, or anybody else who choose to have you choose to have in your lives or our lives, communication isn't just about knowing how to talk, it's knowing how to listen. Knowing when to question, to ask questions instead of making assumptions, knowing when a relationship deserves some repair, and knowing when somebody deserves a little grace. And also knowing when somebody has respectfully declined to give you what you need. And sometimes it's not always respectful. And sometimes when they've repeatedly shown you that they simply cannot or will not meet you where you're at. So while you're listening today, I want you to think about your own relationships. Who is investing in you the way you're investing in them? Who can you have conflict with and still come out stronger on the other side? And maybe the biggest question is are the relationships in your life actually feeding you, or are you keeping some of them alive simply because they have they've been around for a long time? So okay, I'm done preaching before we get back into the episode. So grab yourself a drink, get comfortable, and get ready for some cheese made with a little communic communication theory sprinkled on top. We're taking it back for the conversation I had with Dr. Marcus Shepard. And whether this is your first time hearing it or you're coming back for another listen, I think there's some really good things in this conversation with us. So let's get into

Call For Creatives To Tap In

SPEAKER_02 8:33

it. Calling all artists, musicians, designers, creatives, and entrepreneurs. If you're building something bold, intentional, and rooted in culture, the Hella CheeseMay Podcast wants to hear from you. The Hella Cheese Mate Production LLC was created to amplify underrepresented voices, to build community through storytelling and create platforms where creativity and culture are taken seriously. I know we love the Cheese Mate over here and we love to talk all the good gossip in the juicy team. But this is about sharing your story, sharing your history, your lived experience, and to build connection. We want to talk about the process, we want to talk about the passion, we want to talk about the purpose. This is not just a promo for your business. It's storytelling, it's legacy, it's documenting the journey behind your art. If you're creating with intention and building something that deserves to be seen, please tap in. Reach out to cheesemaypod at gmail.com is in the description box below. Let's tap in and we're gonna create something powerful together. Bye.

Meet Dr Marcus Shepherd

SPEAKER_02 11:12

And uh we're gonna welcome Dr. Marcus Shepherd, and y'all gonna be nice. Um tell the people about yourself, tell them who you are, um and we'll jump in.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Sure. My name is uh, as was said, Dr. Marcus C. Shepherd, but of course, for the podcast, right? You can call me just Marcus. I'm a tenured professor of communication. I study interpersonal communication as well as rhetoric. My specialty in interpersonal communication is kind of what we're going to delve a bit into on today's episode. I also host a podcast after several years of my students asking me to give them a little something called off the data provided. So if you hopefully enjoy what we're going to discuss today, feel free to check that out as well. And I have also released a book, Midnight Musings, Interpersonal Communication and Social Media, that you can also check out. It's more so a textbook that I use with my students, but it also has a lot of great information out there for you. So I think that's good enough for who I am for these purposes.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Yes, yes, absolutely. And thank you for sharing and thank you for joining us to on today's episode. Um, so on your podcast, Off the Data Provided was actually how I find you, uh, how I found you, uh, and uh following you on social media. Um, and I do think you do a very great job, obviously, of diving into the topic of communications and interpersonal relationships. Um, share with the people a little bit how you uh started down that path. Like what made you interested in the communications topic and um then moving in the direction that you moved in uh professional-wise?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Sure. So I actually got into communication studies because I originally wanted to go into the music industry. And so I was looking around to see what degrees people had, and a lot of people had communication degrees or communication backgrounds. So I was fortunate enough to graduate high school early and do kind of a high school internship with Universal Republic Records, and so that's where I kind of met a lot of people who had these communication degrees. So, of course, when I went to college, I declared I wanted to be a communications major. But while I was there, I kind of fell in love with teaching. I actually taught a few undergraduate courses. I went to Northwestern for undergrad and then USC for my master's and PhD. And so I was teaching classes and really fell in love with just lecturing, talking, helping people understand, having healthy debates, things I think you know were missing maybe in this current day and age. And then really into the interpersonal realm actually came about from students coming to office hours for help in other classes I was at TA at, and they would ask me, you know, for personal advice. And I would always say the tagline for the podcast, right? Off the data provided, I would always tell them, you know, off of the data provided what you've told me, this is what I think you should do. And what's always fascinating, I think, for me, when I offer advice, whether you know, solicited or not, I try and give more so solicited than unsolicited advice these days. But when you do give advice, usually people don't like the advice you're giving. They start giving you more information, right? So that's where it's for me, it's like off the data provided. This is what I think you should do, or this is what I think is happening. And usually people, if they like it, you know, they rock with they don't like, well, wait a minute, I forgot to tell you this, I forgot to tell you that to try and change your perspective and opinion on it. So that's kind of moved me into fascinating interests. I did my doctoral work at USC. I focused more so on rhetoric and I focused on music. My book project or dissertation was on Neil Soul music, but I also always had a love for interpersonal communication. And I eventually wrote the book Midnight Musings Explorations and Interpersonal Communication because I thought there was kind of this missing element talking about interpersonal communications and social media. And so the book is if I can believe it or not, seven years old now, but it still talks about a lot of topics that people are wrestling with. And I even coined a term in their amienship, which talks about a different form of platonic relationship that I think we've seen evolve in this social media, digital media era that didn't exist, of course, probably a generation before us.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And um I think when you when you talk about the connections between social media and in and building relationships, it's a it's a lot to unpack there. I mean, people have chosen different pathways to connect and to build the relationships that they have, especially using social media. Um, and we are definitely gonna get into uh some of that as we move through um through today's conversation. Um, so on this show, we've talked a lot about like different forms of communication and uh we've talked about like dating, we've talked about relationships. And one of the reasons why I wanted to dive a little deeper into the communication and the building relationships with one another, um, and how those things connect and correlate is because I also have studied um communications in my college life.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

And uh the college life way back when. The college life way back when.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

No, I mean it's it was it's always been something that I would I would tell people, I'll be like, I'm pretty good at communication, which I can say that sometimes I am. Uh am I the best communicator at all times I am not. And I also and I think that it's important to uh to have these conversations because we are in a world where COVID was a thing, so all we were doing were communicating through either social media or this way virtually, uh, and we weren't in person with each other uh as often. Um so I think sometimes some of those practices have gotten lost. Uh some of those practices weren't utilized at all. Um and so I just wanted, I think it's a great time to set the tone for this conversation to have this conversation now. Um, starting simple, uh, what is your definition of an interpersonal relationship for the folks so that they know and understand and we keep it very simple for the people?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Sure.

What Counts As Interpersonal

SPEAKER_00 17:45

So when I think about interpersonal relationships, I always take a step back and think about interpersonal communication. And so what's important to think about with interpersonal communication is that it's a selective process. And so what that means essentially is it's selective. You don't choose to engage with just anybody when it comes to interpersonal communication, and it's a process because it evolves over time. So we're creating meaning, we're building connections, we're reflecting with one another. And usually with interpersonal communication, our ties become closer as we get to know each other on a deeper level. And as we continue to communicate, we grow closer, we form best friends or romantic relationships or even family members. If you're a child and you meet a family member, right, okay, you're getting to know them a little bit. But as you continue to have these interpersonal communication events and moments, you hopefully are fostering closer ties. So, of course, that then builds interpersonal relationships, which also you don't do with just anybody. So I'm reminded of this communication, interpersonal communication continuum. I think it's Martin Bubber who created it. And it's from I it to I vow communication. And so I it communication is essentially just talking to someone. You don't see their humanity, they're very much an object, you're not affirming their existence whatsoever. It's usually how we treat employees at a store, you might think. So maybe I'm dating myself a little long in the tooth, right? And I still engage in the store, not in this way, but you know, if I'm checking out with a cashier, I'll ask them how their day is going, has it been busy, things of that nature. Where most people, nine times out of ten, right, are here's my phone, you're checking me out, and I'm on the phone. And oh, how much was that? What did you say? Oh, did that not? Okay. And back to your phone, right? We're not acknowledging them whatsoever. So you're not doing interpersonal communication with just anybody, and you're not building an interpersonal relationship with the person at the store. And then we have IU communication, which I would think is probably the majority of the communication we do, where we engage with people, but just in their social roles. So, right, I'm a professor. When I engage with my students, I do see some of their humanity and I'm engaging with them as students, but I'm not doing interpersonal communication with them at all either, right? We are communicating within our assigned roles. We do value one another because of what we bring to the table, but it's not that I vow communication, which is interpersonal communication, where I see people as unique individuals, they're whole, they're complex. So here we're engaging in someone's being when we reveal our sincere selves to them as an opposite of seeming, where we kind of construct and manage a presentation of self. And that's kind of that IU communication, right? You're I'm presenting as Professor Shepard. So you're gonna engage with me as Professor Shepard. That's about the extent of our relationship. So clearly, there's more of a communication engagement than the employee at the store or a dog walker. Maybe you pass your dog off to them, you're like, all right, I'll see you in 30 minutes. But that's how we build and see. So to me, it's always fascinating when people talk about interpersonal relationships or interpersonal communication. Well, there it's selective and it's a process, and you're not doing it with just anybody. And I think part of the larger issue, even before COVID has become a thing, right? We're still in a pandemic, FYI, right? But before even COVID became a thing, we were seeing this breakdown where people are craving these interpersonal relationships and believing they have them, where in reality they probably don't. And I think that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

No, yeah, 100%. And I when I agree when you when you also say that um we are still in the pandemic. I 100% agree and I'm aware I always actually see you when you're wearing your mask and you always taste in the the air, the the zone that you're in. And I think that's amazing and fantastic. You know, I think that um folks do think that we are no longer in a pandemic, um, but they Don't realize there are people still getting sick every single day. I actually just talked to somebody earlier today who was just saying that she just had COVID and was down for three weeks. So, you know, it's like it has not gone anywhere and it is not over, it has not ended. Um when you talk about uh the communication and and then building those relationships in the ways that we choose with the people we choose, um, and I think the reference of the grocery store is a great uh uh a great example. I also often think about when we talk about like Uber and Lyft, right? Uh where we're in the car with this stranger, and I feel like, you know, Uber and Lyft have now, or ride share has now been created in a way where we as the customer get the option to talk or not talk, or the driver has the option to talk or not talk. Um it's it's an interesting dynamic when you're in someone else's car, but you you have been giving the autonomy to be like, well, I don't want to talk to you, or you don't have to talk to me. What are your thoughts

Tech Replaces Community Moments

SPEAKER_02 23:10

on that?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah, I think we were seeing society change. I wouldn't I don't know if I would use the word evolve because usually evolve, we're becoming into something greater, right? I think of a butterfly is evolved, right? Or a caterpillar evolves into a butterfly. But I think that's a perfect example where I believe on these apps, I don't use them as much, but I believe you do have sometimes the option to say you want a quiet car, right? Which essentially will alert your driver that you don't want them to speak to you whatsoever. And so I know sometimes I'll get in a car and write, and I'm I'm always friendly and pleasant, like, hello, how are you? And depending on their vibe or depending on my energy level and mood, right, I may want to engage further or I may not, or the driver may or may not as well. And so I think what's fascinating about how we're shifting in this economy is we have farmed out a lot of our community to these apps. So I know when I was doing my PhD in LA, right, Uber and Lyft weren't really a thing yet. And so when people needed rides to go to airports, who would you call? You would call your friends and see if they could take you to the airport because that would be so much easier and way less expensive than a cab. And so clearly now instead of calling up a friend, oh, I'm coming to visit you, it's like, okay, yeah, you'll just take an Uber here to visit me, right? So a part of community, a part of an interpersonal communication event, right? I remember picking up friends or driving them to the airport, right? What are we doing? We're talking for 30, 40 minutes while I'm driving into the airport. We're having great dialogue, great face time. So some of these communication events are disappearing because we are relying and using this technology. And so that becomes part of this breakdown where people desire community, but they're not necessarily willing or maybe even potentially able to offer that service. Right. I know during the lockdowns, I ended up selling my car because I wasn't really using it much before the pandemic began. And now, since you know, we're no longer on lockdown, though very much in a pandemic, I believe it's over a million people a day are still getting COVID just in the United States alone. We're in the 11th wave. News isn't really talking about it, but it is here. And if you just do a little research, right, just look under the cap, right? You can see a lot that's happening. But even though we're not in lockdown, right, I'm able, fortunately, I live in a city, so I can take mass transit. I do have access to a community of people who have cars if I need to go somewhere, or I'm fortunate enough where I can afford an Uber or lift if I need to go to the airport. But clearly I don't have a car, so I'm not someone who would offer now that community service. But also, if we think about it, who really drives their friends to the airport anymore, right? Or loved ones to the airport anymore. I know I drive my parents to the airport, right? They'll pick me up in their car and I'll take, they'll drive there, right? And then I'll take their car back to their place or run errands. But that's really just my parents, right? My friends that live around me, none of them have asked me if I could help them with the ride. And I, whenever I go to the airport, I don't ask them either, right? So these aspects that maybe even a decade ago that were part of our fosterings of communities and creating and more so not just creating, but maintaining these bonds, these aspects are kind of disappearing.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah, no, 100%. I mean, it's it's definitely not as a peep as a people, we're not as consistently connected or wanting to be connected, I feel, as I feel like uh at one point in time society would push us to be uh connected. Um and then when we and when we talk about those things and wanting to connect with people, you know, it kind of brings me to uh talking about kind of key elements of building uh those personal relationships or uh those key elements to uh communication. Um, what are some that you mentioned for you uh that you would mention for yourself that you think are key elements of building those uh relationships?

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Sure.

Four Building Blocks Of Connection

SPEAKER_00 27:19

So in my book, I talk about like a friendship formula, which has four ingredients, but I think these ingredients are vital to any interpersonal relationship. So, of course, first and foremost, and we've been talking about it, but haven't labeled it, is investment. So investment is the time, the feelings, the energies, the thoughts that you put into a relationship. So clearly driving a friend to the airport is an investment. You're using your time to take this person. And oh, by the way, once you drop them off, you have to get yourself back home. So it's just not the ride to the airport. It's also now you have to ride maybe in solace. I'm someone if I'm driving, right? I'll either call somebody or I'm listening to music, right? So I'm not feeling alone. But you know, that's a vital important aspect of any interpersonal relationship is investment. And I think the reason we see a lot of turnover and a lot of relationships is people aren't investing to the degree. And so I know for myself, I'm very much a planner. I'm someone that kind of leads my friend group here, where I'm send, you know, I created a mass text and I'll say, hey, this event's happening. I'm interested in going. Anybody want to go or I'm doing this if you want to come. So I'm a planner, and that doesn't take much investment. But what does take investment is when I host cookouts or kickbacks or movie nights, right? So I have to get have my place prepped, I have to have some food, some drink. And so this is me investing. And so if you have relationships where you feel like the investment is unequally yoked, where I'm always putting in and this other person is just taking out of the bank, that's when usually we see issues with interpersonal relationships, right? And so I've experienced that with familial relationships, where one thing I give to I think the younger generation is, and I appreciate teaching, I teach, I call them learning communities, is the fact that when I we talk about interpersonal communication, we talk about our shall not rules when it comes to friendships and dating. Well, those same things should also apply to familial relationships. And I think older generations and you know was pushed on me, but thank goodness to my students for kind of popping me out of that, where we just suffer. Oh, I wouldn't allow a friend to do that, but oh, that's my cousin, that's my aunt, that's my uncle, that's my brother, that's my mom, that's my dad. So, you know, even though I don't appreciate that or I wouldn't let someone else do it, they get a free pass. Well, no, no, no, they shouldn't get a free pass either. So I think that's one part of the formula, right? I call it friendship formula, but I think interpersonal communication formula or interpersonal relationship formula is you have to have investment. And then from that investment, we build emotional closeness, which is through that dialogue or through shared activities. So we know from different research studies that usually women who are forming interpersonal relationships, especially with each other, they do it more so through dialogue. So that self-disclosure opening up, where usually cis heterostrape men oftentimes do it through shared activities. So they'll join a rec league or they'll join a gym or they'll join something. And through that activity, they'll foster those friendships. But what's dangerous sometimes, where if you're just building that emotional closeness through shared activities, is when those activities go away, what happens? And so I think we saw that a lot with COVID and the lockdown specifically, where when you couldn't go if we were in a rec league playing soccer and now that league doesn't meet anymore, I'm home alone, I'm not, I'm not talking to anybody, right? So I think there needs to be a balance between that, right? When you're doing that shared activity, are we also having some dialogue? Or is it really just around that? And so the male loneliness epidemic, which everyone likes to talk about, even though the numbers and the data actually shows that women are almost as lonely as men, right? It's not this huge where men are like 80% and women are 20, right? I think the numbers are both in the 20-something percentile for both men and women. Last I checked on a more recent study. So of course we have investment, emotional closeness. Of course, you have trust. And so that's not betraying your confidence. So if I tell you something in private and I say, please don't share this with anybody, you don't do that. But it's also doing what you say you will do. And so I think this has become a growing issue with a lot of people where your word isn't really your bond. So if I say, hey, are we on for the movies next week? And you say, sure. And then I get to the movies and I text you, hey, I'm here, what's going on? You're like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like I got inundated, like I can't. Okay, that might happen once or twice, but if it keeps happening, well, do I want to keep investing if I can't even believe you're gonna show up to do what you say you're gonna show up to do? And so I think that's a huge issue. And then, of course, support, which is both verbal and nonverbal. So, of course, nonverbal support, right? Hugging someone, holding their hand, rubbing their back, and then verbal support, physically showing up, saying good positive things to people. So I know I don't know when this will air, but this weekend after we're recording, right? I'm clearly I'm going to DC to literally support a friend who's running his first half marathon, right? So I'm showing up, I'm investing, right? My time, I have to travel to DC, my money, I have to travel there. And I'm showing up supporting him. Trust, he believes that I'm coming, my word is my bond. And clearly we're gonna have emotional closest. There'll be some shared dialogues while we're physically face to face, as well as, of course, the shared activity of supporting him through this milestone. So I think those are really four building blocks to any interpersonal relationship. And when a few of those are missing, that's usually when the interpersonal relationship starts to go sideways, someone pulls back, or people ghost one another, right? So we see that especially in dating, but I think it's becoming slowly more and more common with newer friendships where you might start off on a great foot, then someone starts becoming unavailable too much, and then you're like, Well, why do I waste? Keep asking this person to do something if they always turn me down. Uh, just won't hit them up. They never hit you up. Say lobby.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

So you triggered a couple of thoughts for me, and we're gonna uh we're gonna head down, we're gonna go down two different paths.

Invitations Boundaries And Priorities

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Okay, the first one is I um I'm a firm believer in how we as human beings build relationships. Uh we it's be it's based sometimes based on some of the past relationships that we've seen, whether that is marriages, other friendships we've seen, um, other connections, and it doesn't have to be a sexual relationship or a romantic relationship. Relationships to me are relationships, and I think friendships are uh are relationships without it being any type of it doesn't necessarily need to include any sexual contact or anything like that. It's we're friends, we are in a relationship of some sort, right? And I think about um how I react when it comes to uh if I am uh in a friendship and the person is not necessarily uh um putting in everything that I put in because I too am a I'm a person when I'm a friend with someone, I um and it's also because most of my friends are my family. I put a lot of energy into my friendships and I take the people that I you know bring in as friends, I take that very seriously. So, you know, if I do notice that a person is not putting in as much uh energy as I am, sometimes I start to push it to the back burner. Uh and I will though try to communicate like, hey, what's up? Like what what do we got going on here? I do it with friends, I even do it with my husband. If I'm like, you're not really giving me as much energy as I'm needing right now, so tell me what's going on. The other thought that I uh that you made me think of was um was when um it was something that you were saying around um dwindling of relationships and connections and um and commitment, right? What is it about people that if I'm asking you to if I'm continuously inviting you somewhere and you telling me that you don't want to go, why do people still just want to be invited? What is that all about?

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I think people want to be included, right? You feel as if you're in community with people, but I also think what's interesting about these invites, I sometimes I consider some invites false invites. So you already know I'm going to say no, but you're inviting me anyway. And then sometimes people use those false invites as then an excuse not to invite you to something that maybe you would have been interested in. So perfect example. I, you know, don't really go out as much as I used to, especially because COVID is still out and about. And so all my close friends know that they don't invite me when they go to the club or they do certain things. And I don't take any offense to that. But if they were inviting me and I kept saying no, and then maybe they went to the movies or they did some fun outdoor activity that I'd be interested in, and they didn't invite me, they're like, oh, well, you know, whenever I invite you to the movies, you all are not the movies, whenever I went to the club, you always say no. So I didn't think you'd be interested. Well, this is a totally different type of activity, and you know the reason why I'm saying no to this is because I'm COVID aware, and so I don't want to put myself in harm's danger, but hey, going to the movies, I can be masked up, or we're doing an outdoor activity, like clearly the air quality is gonna be way better and less transmission. I'd be interested in that. So fortunately, I don't have that issue anymore with people, right? But I did have a former friend who was getting frustrated, and this was even during lockdown where they were just going out and doing things, and clearly I was like, Well, I'm not going anywhere. And then they would get frustrated and be like, Oh, well, I want to hang out with you, but you know, I know you take COVID series. I was like, so why didn't you come to me? We could have brainstormed and thought about some events or spaces that we both would have liked or enjoyed, right? And I think it's just that calming courtesy. So I to me, it's like, I don't understand the well, just invite me anyway, even if I say no. Well, no, if you keep saying no, I'm gonna just stop inviting you. And I think that's valid. But I think before you do that, it's important to have a conversation with that person if you truly do have an interpersonal relationship with them. Again, you might not have one, and I think that's a harder pill for people to swallow, where maybe this is just someone who's a friend of my friend. And yes, I was trying to foster a friendship with this person, but for whatever reason, they don't seem to be interested. And that's also okay. Nobody has to want to be in an interpersonal relationship with you because you want to be in one with them, and so that is gonna be yeah, that's something people have to realize. And I think as you get older and we kind of remove our egos a little more out of the way, you are able to move in a way where we're just not compatible. The way I do friendship isn't gonna be compatible with you, right? I let close friends know, people that are becoming close to me that if you get in a relationship, a serious relationship, that doesn't mean that we go from talking every week, maybe multiple times a week, to now I hear from you, I don't know, maybe twice a month or every other month. And that happened with a former close friend of mine. And but he knew that because I had cut off a friend who literally just went ghost because he got in a relationship and then popped up when the relationship ended and expected me to just pick up where the pieces left off. And I said, I don't do that, and you're aware of that, and so thank you, next, right? As Ariana said, and we move, right? I genuinely wish the people the best, but that's not how I do friendship. And nobody has to do friendship the way you do it. But if there's some commonality or some crossover, then that's where we can build from. But a non-negotiable, right? A shall not rule for me is friendships aren't placeholders for romantic relationships. And I think a lot of people, especially in their 20s and sometimes in their 30s, that's what friendships are, right? Oh, you're the people I hang out with, I see all the time, but now I got a partner, now I'm dating someone. I don't have time for y'all. And it's like, well, of course you're not gonna have as much time for me because you do have this other relationship. And when you're building a new relationship, it takes a lot more time. But it doesn't mean we go from 60 to zero. And I think that's an issue a lot of people are having and trying to maneuver. But one of my best friends, she's been in and out of several long-term interpersonal relationships. And I have talked to her at least once a week, basically every week since we became close friends, well over a decade, right? So the fact that she has these deep interpersonal relationships did not stop the fact of us communicating. And so, there to me, there's no excuses. People always say, if there's a will, there's a way. We all have the same 24 hours, but you can prioritize things. And it just means I'm not a priority to you. And that's also okay. We just have to be realistic and honest about that, and then we can move accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Yeah, it just goes back to your point of what you were saying earlier that people that's interesting, people make time for what they want to make time for, and they choose who they want those connections with, right? Um, you know, I I have a friend too who I've been friends with for decades at uh or a couple of decades at this this point. Um, and we try we make time whether it's every month or whether it is um a couple of times a month. You know, it does it depends on what it is and what we what time we have available, but it it's true. Like, you know, it you make time for the people that you want to make time for, and uh vice versa. Um I wanted to move into this next uh piece with I have a couple of uh facts uh or myths that I want to talk through.

Nonverbal Communication And Assumptions

SPEAKER_02 41:46

Um so one uh one of them is a lot of people throw around the idea that 93% of communication is nonverbal. Is it a fact or not? What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 42:00

I mean, I think what's very interesting about all these facts and figures is there's always some potential truth to those things. And so I do know even in like different communication textbooks, right, they do talk about the majority of communication is nonverbal, right? And so the number might vary, maybe it's 80%, maybe it's 90%. I do believe that the majority is nonverbal because if you just think about it, verbal communication is just the words that you say, right? It's literally just the words. Nonverbal is everything else, so it's how you say it. It is, you know, your facial features when you say it, your hand movements, your body language, tone of voice, the rate, the pitch. So, perfect example. You can ask how someone's day is, and it can mean totally different by how you say it. So I'm like, how's your day? Right? It sounds like I'm really interested in how's it going? But like, how's your day? Right? I feel like I'm obligated to ask you, right? I'm rolling my eyes, means I really am not interested. So we get more meaning from the nonverbals. But what's dangerous sometimes when we think about this, and I always talk to my students about assumptions, and especially as we're building interpersonal relationships, as we talked about, it's a process, it's evolving. So the more we get to know someone, the more we believe we can assume things about them. Or, oh, well, Marcus wouldn't want to do that because I know he doesn't like X, Y, or Z. Well, maybe I wouldn't have, but maybe there was an off chance I was interested in trying something new, or I wanted to get out of my comfort zone. So still ask. But we assume, right, even with nonverbals. So a perfect example I always use with my students is you know, if someone's doing this while they're listening, sometimes we think it means they're bored, right? Like they're propping up their head, they're not trying to go to sleep. But I know for me, if I'm really trying to focus on what someone's saying, I'm trying to lean in and I'm propping myself up. I might even be pushing my ear, like adjusting my ears a little bit so I can hear them a little better. And so Even though my nonverbals you might interpret this as me being bored or disinterested, in reality, I'm actually really trying to focus on what you're saying. So even though we do, yes, I would agree that we communicate more so nonverbally, we need to still check in with our nonverbal assumptions with what the person is saying or doing.

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Agreed. Um, I'm trying to be better at assuming.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

When you make assumptions, you make an ass of yourself. I think that is the like the phrase that they say. And you and more times than not, you do. Now, of course, if you really do know someone and you can kind of see through some of the stuff, yeah. Sometimes, as I say, I'm I'm a communication expert, right? I also tell people that communication is a skill you always are working on, you're always improving upon, even though I teach this material, I have a PhD in it, right? It's still something I can always approve upon, but I am better than the average person. So usually my assumptions are correct most times with the people I do interpersonal communication with, but I still try and check those in with those people, just so we're on the same page. And I'm not assuming one thing when it's totally something else.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

No, absolutely. I do try to um I try to make sure to ask clarifying any clarifying questions to before I uh my assumption becomes the the fact of whatever the situation is. Um but you know, I think when we talk about um building relationships with the people that we want to build them with, or if we've tried to build relationships uh with people and they have essentially, you know, giving you their ass to kiss the time or the process of you know trying to build those relationships, you do start to build assumptions on how that person either is going to uh react or going to um going to respond to the way that um the way that you are uh you're starting to try to connect with them. And there it's not it's not gonna work, right? Um before we go on this break, let's try and talk through this last uh fact or myth. Uh so it says uh good communicators never fight because they always know how to navigate difficult conversations. The Leo in me is like, no, I don't, you know, I don't ever argue with people. You know, it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah, I mean, I I think actually great communicators will get into debates, we'll get into arguments, right?

SPEAKER_02 46:33

Because we are gonna have if you've made it this far in this episode and you haven't subscribed yet, that's wild. Go ahead and hit that subscribe button on YouTube, follow us on Instagram, tap in everywhere, child, because apparently the algorithm only respects consistency and emotional damage. And to my professional doom scrollers out there, girl. Yes, I'm talking to you. If you can scroll for 47 minutes and not press the subscribe button, we can have a full conversation on how you need to go ahead and dedicate yourself to something, girl, because it sounds like you got some dedication issues. Help us beat the algorithm, girl. Like, comment, share, send it to your girlfriends, your your boyfriends, your lady friends, your they them friends, the ones who love the chit chat about all the tea, but never really want to start that podcast. Because I want them in my comment box. Don't just watch the cheese made, join the cheese made girl, subscribe, follow, and stay connected, honey, because we building something cute over here, and we want you to be a part of it. Okay, so starting with uh our next uh myth, so it says good communicators never fight

Conflict That Strengthens Relationships

SPEAKER_02 47:50

because they always know how to navigate difficult conversations. Fact or myth. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

I definitely think that is a myth. As someone who is a great communicator, I still do get in disagreements, arguments with people, but what's important to know, especially with conflict, to know just about conflict is usually what we remember about these conflict events, is not necessarily what the conflict was about, but how it was resolved and how it made us feel. So, a perfect example I know with this is one of my best friends. Her and I we will get into dust steps every like six months or so, right? We've been best friends for well over a decade. And we have the tools and language where okay, maybe someone needs a moment, but we come back because we care about our relationship and we want to fix whatever the issue is. And always the death steps aren't about each other, it's maybe our views of opinions on something, or maybe I asked for advice and didn't like what the advice was, or vice versa, and so feelings are hurt, but we don't want to sit in that, so we come together and we resolve it. And so a famous thing that she does is sometimes she interrupts when I talk, right? And I used to do that, but I I, you know, sit on my hands, right? So to say, and like, okay, I'm just gonna try and listen and let you get your full point out, and then I'll be like, hey, I'm talking, and then I'm talking. She and also be like, hey, you know, I allowed you to say your full thoughts, please allow me the same grace, right? And of course she does it and allows it. But what how we've been trained oftentimes is when we're arguing, oh, if someone says something we don't agree with, let me now jump in and back and forth. And so we've reoriented how we approach that conflict. Or as I've talked about in my book, right? One of my friends, she likes it straight no chaser. So if I have an issue or I she wants my opinion, just give it to her straight no chaser. I don't need to butter her up. I can just be like, no, I don't like that, or I think that's bad, or this person is bad for you, and this is why. Where another close friend of mine, he needs to be eased in, like, oh, do you really think that's the best decision? Well, why do you think that? Right. And so it adds a few more minutes to the conversation, but because I am aware that this is the best way to approach this conflict, it ultimately helps our relationship in the end. And so I think as we're children, as we evolve, hopefully, we're taught these skill sets and this is how you do things. But as you evolve and you gain, we have concepts of person-centeredness and cognitive complexity. But essentially, what all that means is as you realize that people are unique and different individuals, you have to then engage with them a little differently. So I can't treat friend A the exact same way I treat friend B. I can very much do that, but I'm probably not gonna have the most beneficial relationships with those individuals because they're not the same person. And I shouldn't also have the same expectations of them because they're also not bringing those same things to the table. So even great communicators, right? I'm a great communicator, several of my friends, I would argue, are great communicators. We still get into arguments, we still get into dust ups, but we know how to work through them in a way that's productive. And I think that's what great communicators do. They realize that conflict is actually a moment to show that you care about somebody. Because if I care about you, I'm gonna work my way through this conflict. But if I don't care about you, I'm just gonna leave you dying on the vine, in essence, right? So if what we see sometimes as we talk about interpersonal relationships, if you get into a really big conflict with someone and you're forming a friendship with them, you're not really locked in yet. You're we would call that an asympt friendship, right? It's the beginnings, it's sprouting. If we get in a really bad conflict, I don't like how you handled it, or maybe you don't like how I handled it, our friendship probably isn't gonna move forward because there's not enough support, there's not enough basin for our relationship to survive that that cut in the concrete. But clearly, I most of my friends I've known now, or my closest friends I've known for almost well over a decade plus. So there's so much foundation for our relationship that any conflict isn't going to shake us too much because we have continually built upon it. And one of my friends in particular, we do friendship check-ins where it's like, well, how am I showing up? And is there something I'm missing? Is there something I'm not doing that you want me to do? Is there something I'm doing that you don't want me to do anymore? How can we move forward? So I think that's definitely a myth that great communicators don't have conflict, don't have arguments. They do. They just hopefully know how to maneuver them better to actually strengthen the relationship.

Navigating Coworker Communication

SPEAKER_02 52:27

So I want to um before we move on to the next part, I actually want to reframe this uh this myth or fact and use it and frame it in a different um in a different space. Uh so we talked a lot about uh friendships, we talked about relationships, and we've talked about um though building those connections and how to navigate things like that in that space. What about the workspace? And I'm like, you know, and I mean I can share that what if I was the person who've had an interaction with a coworker who I have to work in the same space with, and we've not had good interactions, but yet and still I'm still trying, and I do consider myself to be a good professional, uh, a great professional communicator. And outside of that, and um we do have have had a past of not good interactions. What then? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 53:31

I think what's always interesting just about communication in general is I always say that any communication is content, context, and communicative specific. So essentially it goes back to the right off the data provided, where what will work or won't work with one colleague will or won't work with another colleague, and vice versa, which just goes into any interpersonal relationship, as kind of we alluded to that what works with one friend might not work with another. What works with one romantic partner won't work with another. And I think that's another issue we see just in dating where, well, I've dated your type before, I know how you're gonna act. Well, actually, no, this person is unique and different. You shouldn't be using someone your past experience with somebody else to dictate or color in who this person is. Now, it might give you warning signs and you should check in with that person about that, right? If we are an effective communicator, but with the going back to the coworker situation, I think what's interesting, and you know, I'm lucky, knockgone wood, right? I'm a professor. So my colleagues are also teachers, but we don't really interact unless it's faculty meetings. So I run my class, right? The course someone will come in and evaluate me once in a while, but that's really the extent of a coworker relationship for me. And I'm famous. I don't know if you've watched Abbott Elementary, but the character who Cheryl Lee Ralph says she has a famous kind of quote that people use, like, I do my work and I go home. And that's very much how I approach my job. Like I'm very available to my students and I do take on some extracurricular work, but that's my job and I go home, right? Like my job is not my interpersonal life. And I think that is becoming a push and pull tug that we're seeing generationally, where generations I know, especially my parents, a lot of their friends were coworkers, right? We work together, then we would go out and grab a drink or have meals, or of course we have trips and we're going to foreign countries together, right? So we're fostering these interpersonal relationships where I think the younger generations are open to collegial coworkers and maybe forming friends, but they also like already have friends at home, right? Like we got Wendy's at home, right? Or we got McDonald's at home, right? You have your friends at home. And so I'm not coming here looking for friends. And I think we also saw that when lockdown ended and a lot of these jobs were forcing people to go back to work. It wasn't because of productivity, because we've seen from all the data that people were highly productive working from home, even had better job satisfaction, were completing things sometimes on quicker deadlines because it wasn't the drudge of commuting, or I gotta go to the dry cleaner and do all this, right? They had more freedom to do errands and stuff. So people were happier, but I think a lot of the people more so in management felt like, well, this is my social life, right? Like I leave my house and I get away from my family, and I have these friends that I hang out with for a few hours at work and then I go home. And so they were longing that connection. So when it comes to conflicts with coworkers, to me, like I'm fortunate where I do have some conflict with some coworkers, but I have that mentality. I do my job and I go home, right? Like these people don't truly know me. I Dr. Shepherd is a part of me, but it is a persona that I put on when I go to work and I take off when I come at home. And so I think people need to figure out a balance and also to realize that, like, at the end of the day, these are jobs. And the moment you die, the moment you mess up and they fire you, they're posting your thing on LinkedIn and looking for the next person, right? So even though people oftentimes try and make these jobs for like, oh, we're a family and we need to be together, it's like, but on the flip side, if I mess up, I'm out, right? There's no like, oh, a warning, or or if I die, right? Oh, there might be like an email I pass away, but already my job posting is on 20 minutes later. So I think when it comes to coworkers, they are a form of interpersonal relationship. But I think when we talk about the bubber, the interpersonal communication continuum where it's I it, I you, I thou, I would say it's probably healthier to just engage with them in the IU. So yes, I engage with you in your role. And if there are common interests that maybe will sprout through small talk because small talk happens at work, if you're interested in pursuing that, great. But I also think it becomes that blurred line. You know, as they say, dating at the job is very blurred line. I think even sometimes friendships at work can become a blurred line.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

100%. Um, I agree. Um, so the next uh the next one is moving into the conversation about um about interpersonal relationships and the age of dating apps.

Dating App Talk Counts

SPEAKER_02 58:21

So this is my favorite little area because I, you know, I met my husband on a dating app. And um before then, I um I had, you know, we've all had our experiences on these dating apps. Um and it, you know, whether good, bad, or you know, whatever it is. But I at one point wanted to uh pause using a dating app because I was like, I want to see if I can, you know, spark up a conversation with somebody while I'm out in public or while I'm out in general instead of using an app. Um, but the the myth is dating communications, so text, DMs, emojis isn't a real way of communicating. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 59:13

I would disagree with that. I think we have evolved in communication. So I even think, you know, I'm in my mid-30s, so I've seen kind of this evolution firsthand where with these trusty, dusty cell phones, right? Text used to be a delayed form of communication where I would text you something and I'd expect a response eventually, right? Maybe the same day, next day. And if I something was urgent, I would call you if I needed a response quickly. Where I've actually think we've eve, I wouldn't know, I wouldn't say evolved in this sense here, but we've definitely changed. We're texting a lot of people more so think it's supposed to be more immediate. Where a phone call is, oh, to catch up or to hang out. But if I really need to hear something, I'm gonna text you because you could be doing something, so you might not be able to pick up a phone call, but you should be able to answer your text because maybe you have an iPhone and you have a Mac, so the text pops up on your computer while you're at work, you can respond quickly to what I need, where a phone call you might not be able to take. So I do think what has been interesting about digital media and social media and how it has impacted technology is there's this concept of punctuation. And so punctuation is where something begins and ends. And so oftentimes what's really easy to think about punctuation is when two kids usually get in a fight and they're arguing about something, usually that's when punctuation happens, right? So what are they actually arguing about? And oftentimes it's like, well, you did this or you did that, and what they're arguing about is well, who started it? And so with punctuation and with digital and social media, is the communication never necessarily ends. So I know for instance, I'm someone with a gift of gab, and so I like talking, and so I can be on the phone with friends for hours, and while we're on the phone, we can be DMing each other stuff on Twitter and referencing it then on the phone call, and at the same time on Instagram, sharing some videos and saying, Oh, look at that real quick and then let's talk about it. And so now there are just multiple channels of communication where before the internet, right, before Web 2.0 as the technical term would be, right with blogging and social media and dating apps, the communication punctuation was pretty much just the landline phone that you had. So I would call your phone if you were there, great. If you you weren't, and hopefully you had an answering machine, right? Because answering machines weren't common until kind of the late 90s, early 2000s, right? Then I would leave a message. If not, you wouldn't know I called, so I'd have to call back again. And so our communication was when I saw you in face-to-face or when we talked on the phone and that was it. And so now the issue becomes is well, yes, we can talk on the phone, we can see each other, but I can also text you, I can also DM you on social media apps. If I'm on dating apps, I can also message you on there. And it just becomes more complex in figuring out when the communication begins and when it ends. And this is where a lot of people I think drop the ball because they're so inundated with so much communication that sometimes they just get too frustrated or too consumed with it all and just drop the ball and aren't great at responding. Right? I have I have one friend where I send him all these things and like he won't respond unless I call him and then we talk about like, oh, did you see the thing I sent you yesterday? Go, go, go look at it. And he will and we'll talk about it, but he's so inundated with all of these messages that sometimes for him it's just like, let me just shut it out. I'm not gonna engage.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:44

I mean, I'm the same way, especially with being like a content creator and uh and on social media. I'm like, okay, I know I know y'all sent me a bunch of videos, but I'm gonna need about an hour and a half before I get back to you. If that I'm like, because I be like, it's a lot, it's too much. It's a it's a lot of interaction and it's a lot of different things on the meet in on the interwebs right now and today. So um, in terms of like the dating apps, what do you think makes it harder for people to connect with folks on on the apps?

Why Dating Apps Feel Hard

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Sure. I this is actually something I've been working with with some friends, right? Being their communication consultant. And I think part of the issue with dating apps is we're all on there for different reasons. So I think that's the first thing to highlight. So some people are on there because they genuinely are looking to find a committed romantic relationship. Some people are on there just to see who finds them attractive, right? I remember talking to someone, and it became clear through our engagement that they kind of only used it when they were on their way to work or leaving work, and it was kind of just like a thing to do, like a social media to access and okay, I just want to see who's attract who I find attractive. They're gonna swipe on me as well. And so some people really have no intention of even messaging you back or messaging you at all. And so I remember one friend, he uh we were going through when I saw him laugh, and he had like hundreds of matches. And I was like, Well, why haven't you said anything to these people? And he was like, Oh, well, you know, it's just too much. And I'm like, Well, you're wasting your time, you're wasting theirs. I said, So let's delete some of these because I'm sure it's slowing your phone down that you have hundreds of matches. And so I think we need to realize like, ours is someone here for a committed orange relationship, is someone here just to pass the time, is someone here looking for a hookup? What are your intentions? And so I think first and foremost, as I tell my students and friends who seek advice, especially in this dating space, is you need to be clear on what you're looking for. And to me, the biggest thing with dating apps and all that is just compatibility. We just might not be compatible. If I'm looking for a committed romantic relationship and you're looking for a hookup or friends with benefits, we're just not compatible. I might find you attractive, you might find me attractive, we might like talking to each other, but where is this really gonna progress if we want two different things? It doesn't mean you're a bad person, it doesn't mean I'm a bad person, it just means we're looking for two different things, and that's okay. So sometimes I think first and foremost, you need to know why you're on there and don't be afraid to let it be known. So put it on your profile. I'm looking for a serious committed romantic relationship. I'm looking for whatever. Also, with a lot of these apps, they're just looking to find followers, right? So I know when I was on dating apps, right? Eventually it would become clear that, like, you know, people would start having conversations with me, they'd be like, oh, you know, I'm not really on here. Follow my Instagram, we can talk more on there, right? So, okay, we followed each other, and then the communication never really evolved, right? It dies. And so I know back then, like I would put, you know, I'm also not looking to follow you on any social media app. So if that's what you're looking for, like, cool. And when people are like, Oh, I'm not really on here, like, feel free to follow me. I I would just kind of unmatch them, right? Like, we're just not looking for the same thing. I literally say on my profile, I'm not going to do that. And now you're asking me to do that. It's cool. So First, you need to know why you're there and not be afraid of that. Second, you need to have your shall-not rules, whatever those are, which you're not going to tolerate when it comes to dating. And so I think unfortunately, because a lot more people find themselves lonely and are desiring a connection, they bend those. But it ultimately makes your dating experience worse in the long term because you're trying to settle or work through or work with people who you're just not compatible with. So I know for instance, like if you do hookah, it's just a chop, right? Like I'm I'm not a smoker. I don't like you smoke weed. I'm not interested in that, right? So we can very lovely conversations. You can be attracted to me. I can be attracted to you, but you're someone who does hookah, there's nowhere for this to go, right? Or I don't want kids, right? So if you're someone that desires that, it's just not gonna happen. And you know, do you? And you're not bad, I'm not bad. These are just not things I'm looking for. So I think first and foremost, you need to know who you are before you enter the dating space. And I think a big issue is people don't know who they are and or what they want, but they're trying to figure that out while dating. And you can do that trial and error, but you ultimately sometimes I think waste more time doing that than taking a moment of self-reflection, maybe taking a month off and figuring out what you really need. Because if you're doing that, oftentimes you feel jaded and then you take that out on other people who don't deserve that. So, okay, someone comes to you in a way that somebody before did, and now you go off on them. Well, you don't really know this person, you're assuming things about them, and it's probably because you're jaded and you're tired of going through the rigor remote or the cycle of getting to know someone, talking to them, moving forward. So I think those are really important. And then lastly, what I stress with everyone is you need to have a game

Dating Rules And A Game Plan

SPEAKER_00 1:07:50

plan. So when we match, then what happens? How long are we staying on this app until we exchange phone numbers or a video call or do something? And then how long am I willing to wait on that until we see each other in person? Because ultimately the goal, if your goal is to find a committed romantic relationship, it's not to text these people on the app for eternity. And I think some people just get caught up in that where, okay, we're texting, we're talking on this app, and then we're never moving off the app. Okay, so what are we doing here? You need to know why you're here, what you want, what you don't want. Don't be afraid to share it, and also have a game plan. So I know when I was on dating apps, I would, you know, some people are like, well, if you match with them, you say hi. If you if I match with you, I'll say hi. Some people say that, but then you match, they match with you and they don't say hi, right? So I my rules were if I if anybody matches me or I match them, I say hello. If they don't respond to me within 72 hours of me saying hello, it's an unmatch because clearly we're all on our phones. I know for at some points when I was dating, right? I wouldn't have notifications on. So of course, I'm not going to be immediate, but I'm on my phone every day, as is everybody. So the likelihood that I haven't logged into this dating app in three days is slim to none. So if you haven't engaged with me in three days, there's nowhere for this to go, especially if I've said something. And that also goes back to if I've asked you a question or we're starting our communication and then I don't hear from you and 72 hours has passed. I just unmatched because I'm not a priority to you, which I shouldn't be. We're getting to know each other, but you're not investing anything here either. As we talked about before, those building blocks, investment, emotional closeness, trust, support. We can't get there if you're not even responding. Or as I found, as you can tell, I have the gift of gas. I can keep a conversation going with anybody. But if I'm always the one asking you questions, and your your response is always like, oh yeah, what about you? What about you? Oh, right, like you're not even you're being lazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

You're not even you're not giving nothing to this conversation, then we're good, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:56

Like, and that's okay. It just means we're not compatible, right? Some people love doing the interview. I don't. So I think those are really important things to think about when it comes to this dating space and this new way of communicating. And ultimately, if you are looking for a committed romantic relationship, what is your game plan? What is it to move off the app in X amount of time where you feel safe enough? Where you and I think some of these apps, I mean, I haven't been on them in a while. I think some of them you can video chat or phone call in them. So it's like if we've just been texting for more than a week, to me that's a yellow flag, right? Why haven't we chosen chosen, excuse me, to talk on the phone or to video call? Why not? If we're both looking allegedly to get off this app.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:44

100%. I I agree with everything you what you said. I mean, I've had when I was dating, I had instances where I would be like, okay, do you want to go get a drink? You want to go to dinner, you want to go do something? And then uh they'd be like, Yeah, let's do it. We set up a day, day comes, nothing. No ghost didn't you hear nothing. And I often think, you know, at the time I used to think about, you know, people have to be comfortable with um getting to the space to where if they don't want to date someone or if they're not interested, then they just need to say that. Like, you know, we see time and time again posts of people putting up grinder posts or from their scruff experience of people saying, like, oh, I'm not interested. Well, yeah, that's fine. But it's also how you're saying that to people, right? Because they'll go beyond and say all kind of off-the-wall shit to to folks, even when they're not interested, or they just won't say anything. Um, this has been a great conversation. We've covered, I feel like a lot of areas of like, you know, friendships, uh uh uh romantic relationships and um and even in the workplace, which is what's really important to me to make sure that we we touched on and covered. Um let's move on and talk a little bit about your podcast and your show.

Marcus Plugs Podcast And Book

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

Uh what are some of the topics that you cover? What is uh go ahead and plug like maybe your uh most uh your your the episode you love the most? Um let us now talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:27

Sure. So I launched, as I said earlier, a podcast called Off the Data Provided. It is a podcast around interpersonal communication and it focuses on helping give people skills, tips, tricks to maneuver, especially in this digital online space that we find ourselves in. So the podcast is kind of a twice-a-month first and third Wednesday of the month. So you get kind of a little snippet here and there. I usually will cover some theory or a topic, or maybe there was an article that I saw talking about some type of interpersonal concept, and I'll walk the audience through it. And then I will have an Ask Dr. Shepherd where listeners oftentimes submit kind of interpersonal issues or looking for advice where I offer them some based on what they share with me. So as I said before, it came about because students had kept asking me after they've taken my interpersonal communication course if there was like a memento or something they could take or have because I don't record my lectures or anything. And so they were asking for like a video podcast or a podcast, and I was like, Well, I don't know about video podcasts, I'm gonna try and get gussied up and all that, right? Like, but I can give you an audio podcast for sure, and so that is kind of the essence and nature of it, and so far it's been enjoyed by more than just my students, which I just totally appreciate as it was kind of designed for them. When it comes to, I guess, favorite episodes. I don't know if I have a favorite episode or topic. I think the topic that I most enjoy talking about, I say, well, when we discuss friendships, because I think it's an under-discussed topic in terms of the mass population in public. I think when we think about interpersonal communication, most people focus on dating. And then after dating, it's family and maybe coworkers, as you highlighted. But friends are a fascinating interpersonal relationship because there really are no rules or governing bodies that tell us how we engage with these relationships. So if you think about when it comes to romantic relationships, if you get married, well, it's an institution under the state. There are marriage therapists, there are ways that we've been taught in society on how marriages are supposed to operate and work. When it comes to family, right, we have the Department of Family Services in a lot of areas where if you're not being a good caregiver, that could be called on you and the government could step in. When we think about coworkers, you have an HR handbook about what's appropriate, what's inappropriate. But when it comes to friendships, it's kind of the wild, wild west. Whatever I want, or whatever you want, or whatever the other people in the friendship agree upon what it is. And so I think that's really fascinating and a fruitful engagement because some people, right, as I've come to see from social media, right, they kind of blur these boundaries between friends and lovers and all of that. And that works for them. As for me, I'm I don't do gray area very much. So like I definitely am kind of black and white when it comes to friends, right? So if I ever introduce a friend, you know, they're just a friend, they're not a former lover or someone I used to have a flame. That's not what this is. And so for me, I think that's really interesting to just to explore to see what works for other people, right? Because what works for me may not work for somebody else. So I think when when I talk about friendship, that's what I'm most interested and excited about. Because I think people talk about dating and sex and all that ad nauseum. And sure, it's fun and it's flashy, but there's so much talk about that. When it comes to friendships, there's not as much talk, or it's kind of stunted talk where it's stuck in that grade school, like, well, these are the rules of what friendship is. So I know something famous is like, you know, if I date somebody, then my friends can't date them. Well, it's like, well, why is that? Like, okay, that's kind of like a grade school rule. Now, if that person wasn't for you, maybe they are for your friend. Maybe they're your friend's forever person. Are they supposed to just block that off because you had a three-month tryst with this person? Now, maybe if you were in a long-term committed relationship with this person, I can maybe understand that argument. Maybe not, right? So I think as I said before, it's off the data provided. It's always context, content, and communicator specific. So friendships, I think, are the thing I most enjoy talking about.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:57

Yeah, and I think um, in hearing you talk about it, I can hear the passion behind it. And I think it is important to talk about friendships. Um, before most people, that is what the relationships that they have are friendships. And um, and most people talk about how they want to build friendships with their partners. So um I think it's very important, and I um I love that you talk about it. Uh so over here on the Hella Cheese May podcast, we talk about horoscopes, we talk about signs. So the people are wondering, what's your sign, Dr. Marcus?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:32

I am an Aries.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:34

An Aries. I know you're a fire sign. They're Aries are fire signs, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:38

I believe so. It's always interesting about astrology. I have some friends who are like into astrology, and I'm almost like, I don't know what the other signs are. I was like, I know a little bit about mine, I know mine's the best in the first, right? But outside of that, you know, I don't know much. And you know, as with astrology, but I also think when we talk about interpersonal communications, like you'll see like people will list like, oh, these are the best signs to date for your sign, or like avoid these signs in particular. I'm like, okay, so you had a bad experience with this sign, yeah. And that's fine, but also everybody isn't the same, right? Even one of my best friends, she's also an Aries, she's an April Aries, right? So of course that probably means a little something different. But I also have friends that are March Aries and they're different than me. And so, yes, a sign can add something too. So I'd be interested to hear, you know, your thoughts on Aries, I guess. But ultimately, it's a piece of who someone is and not their totality, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:38

No, absolutely. I don't have any Aries hate at all. You know, the Leos we get all the hate online as of as and I don't know if it's my algorithm or because my phone is listening to me, but they love to, it's like always on my TikTok, Instagram. It's all the people talking about the Leos and how much, how many bad experiences they have had, this, that, and the third. And I'm like, girl, we ain't all the same. We ain't all creative equal. You know, we all just out here trying to live our life. That's all we're trying to do. Um, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much for spending the time to chat with me. Uh, it is fantastic, it was fantastic, and um, I'm very excited for uh the folks that are listening in when they hear this um because I know they're gonna love it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:31

Well, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:33

Absolutely. Uh, do you want to do any last-minute plugs before we close out?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:38

Um, just listen to my podcast if you're interested in anything that we've discussed. Of course, it's Off the Data Provided with Dr. Marcus C. Shepherd. I think if you just do Off the Data Provided and Marcus, wherever you listen to podcasts, you will find it. And if you're interested in reading more, right, my book is Midnight Musings, Interpersonal Communication and Social Media. As I said before, it's more so a textbook, but it has a lot of great information, tips, tricks, and tools if you are trying to improve your interpersonal communication. So I think that will be the only plugs for me today.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:12

Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you again, and we'll take uh this final break, and I'll be right back. Bye. And we are back.

Relationship Homework And Reflection

SPEAKER_02 1:20:23

Y'all, listening to this conversation again reminded me exactly why I wanted to bring this episode out of the Hella Cheese May Vault. Because, yes, some things have changed since we originally recorded this conversation, but the need for real connection, better communication, and healthier relationships, that ain't changed, honey. And if anything, I think some of us are still trying to figure this shit out. We're trying to figure out our friendships as we get older, we're trying to maintain community while everybody is busy, tired, working, dating, married, raising families, chasing their goddamn dreams, protecting their peace, and just trying to live their fucking lives. We're trying to navigate dating when there are millions of people and millions of different ways to communicate with somebody, and somehow people still simply can't say, Hey, I'm not interested. We're trying to set boundaries without immediately cutting everybody off. We're learning how to come to have conflict without building every disagreement and making it mean that the relationship needs to end, or that we have to break up with these people. And we're learning that sometimes loving somebody, caring about somebody, or having history with somebody doesn't automatically mean that that relationship is still working for you. One of the biggest things that I took away from the conversation with Dr. Marcus is those four building blocks that he talked about: investment, emotional closeness, trust, and support. And I want to leave y'all with a little hella cheese made homework. Look at the relationships in your life right now, not just your romantic relationships, your friendships, your chosen family, your biological family, the people you call your community, and ask yourself Am I investing in this relationship? But also, are these relationships investing back into me? Because communication cannot always be one person reaching out, community cannot always be one person planning everything, friendship cannot always be one person checking in, and love cannot always be one person doing the work. Now, that doesn't mean everything has to be perfectly 50-50 because that's not real life. Sometimes shit fucking happens, and sometimes somebody needs you to carry a little more, and sometimes you're gonna need somebody to carry you a little more. But there should be reciprocity, honey. There should be care, there should be trust, there should be support, and there should be enough love in that relation for us to say, hey, something doesn't feel right here. Can we talk about it? Because sometimes the answer isn't cutting somebody off, sometimes the answer is having the damn conversation, and most of the time, after that conversation, you realize, baby, we just ain't compatible anymore, honey. And that's okay too. So I want you to so I want to hear from y'all. I want you to comment. What does a healthy friendship look like to you today? Not five years ago, not when you were 21, not what the social media says friendship is supposed to look like. But what do you need from people you call your people right now? Come talk to me in the comments or hit me up on social media because you already know. You already know, honey, you know the episode might end, but the cheese may does not, girl. And before I get out of here, I wanna I want to again thank Dr. Marcus C. Shepherd for having this conversation with us. It was a very uh plentiful and a fruitful conversation for me. And thank you for going into the Hella Cheese May Vault with me today. Whether you heard this conversation when I originally dropped it or this was your first time listening, I hoped you walked away thinking a little differently about how you communicate, how you love your people, and how you allow your people to love you back. As always, make sure you are following the Hella Cheese May podcast on TikTok, Instagram, subscribe to the YouTube channel, make sure you leave a review below, give us five stars or one if you are a hater. But nevertheless, it helps us grow, it helps people be able to find our show, it adds people to our little community. Um, when you do that, but make sure to continue to take care of yourself, take care of your people, communicate what you need, stop expecting people to read your damn mind, and remember keep the conversation honest, keep the community close, and keep the cheese make going. And I will see y'all next time. Bye.

Subscribe Follow Comment And Share

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

Hey y'all, if you like what you heard, make sure you join the conversation. We always say to make sure to like, comment, and subscribe, and we definitely want you to do that. But also, we would love if you would join in with us. There's a link in the description where you can actually send us messages. You can also make sure to tag us on social media, put up your favorite clips of the show, and then tag us, and we will repost them on our stories. That is the best way to get in communicate communication or community with us, and we would love to see y'all interact with the content. Anyway, thank you for following us and thank you for listening. And we'll see you back for the remainder of the show. Bye. Alright, y'all, quick pause. If you've been watching, listening, vibing, and you're not subscribed yet. That's suspicious behavior is given sus. Go ahead and subscribe to the Hella Cheese Mate Podcast on YouTube. That's at Hella Cheese May Podcast. Follow us on Instagram at HellaChees Maypod. And yes, we're on TikTok too. Hey. You can follow us at Hella Cheese May. And to provide professional gym scrolls, if you scroll for 52 minutes straight but can't hit follow, be serious. The algorithm is already fighting us. Don't join it. Leave a comment on this episode, tell us what you think, drop your favorite moment, argue with me respectfully. The comments help more than you know. And wherever you're listening, whether that's Apple, Spotify, wherever, make sure you subscribe there too. Don't just consume the cheese map. Participate in a girlfriend. Help us beat the algorithm before it decides we don't exist. Subscribe, follow, comment, share, girl. You know, being a part of this community just to let you know. It's fun over here because we're building something and we're building something beautiful. Make sure to be a part.